Questions about the free systems and the U2HiSAP - Beat The Casino Forums "Where The Pros Are"

**BaccaratUnited** · 12-03-2008, 02:36 PM

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions to ask you guys in regards to the free systems and the U2HiSAP system.

If Ellis is around, it would be great if you could answer my questions. However, I would also be interested to hear what other private members have to say as well.

1. Number of decks: My local casino has a 6 deck mini-baccarat shoe in which I prefer to play since it is not handheld. There is an 8 deck game in the morning but it doesn't open at times. Does the number of decks matter when playing your systems (Free systems and the U2HiSAP)?

2. How many units is recommended to withstand the downswings? Ellis has mentioned that he goes to the casino with 40 units. But what would be the recommended lifetime bankroll?

3. Once you start building up the wins, do you suggest that you increase your unit size? What is the suggested rate and how often should you do it to avoid exposure (Usually I am the only one playing baccarat in the early mornings)?

4. Is it possible to bring a sustainable income with a small starting bankroll, provided that I follow Ellis' guidelines and minimize your exposure?

**BaccaratUnited** · 12-03-2008, 02:49 PM

I forgot to add another question by the way,

My local casino prohibits the usage of other scoresheets than the ones provided by the casino.

How should I combat this? From what I remember, the casino's scoresheets doesn't have enough columns (4 I believe) to fill in the C/S count and the O/R count...

And would it be more advantageous if I was the only one to play at the table (I would have to place a wager but that can be the minimum bet - $5) or is it better to play at a table where everyone is playing?

Thanks once again and I look forward to having success at the baccarat tables!!! (Hopefully, since I have lost lots of time / money through my gambling years)

**mreteuya** · 12-04-2008, 04:14 PM

Hello BaccaratUnited,

My name is Mark, I will try and attempt to answer your questions the best I can. I have been a paid member for about 3 months now and am very happy. I am very close to playing it full time for a living, as soon as my circumstances allows. I have met so many nice and helpful members, all who have helped a lot! Players like Wolfat, PapaJoe, Aegis, Zenwin, ShuttleSmasher, Skepters, Marty, Hieke, and so much more. They are all VERY humble, and most do not give themselves the credit they deserve for being great Baccarat players and ALL are in the quest to play the perfect system.

I am even more excitied, especially since word has come out to paid members that Ellis will be coming out with a revised, much more simple manual of the next generation U2HiSAP! This is the next step you have read about in the free forum after learning how to play the "U2HiSA Best version" that is posted in the free stuff to the public members.

This new "SAP" manual will be like a "SAP for Dummies" that will take even the newest rookie to Baccarat and have them winning BIG in the casinos in no time! And from what I've heard not only do you get a manual, but it may even come with a Video/ Audio that will teach you with play by play instructions of an actual game!

From what I hear it will be made available FREE only to paid members, but the demand for this will be so hot that it may be availble to the public but at a seperate and much higher price!

My suggestion, become a paid member and become part of the "inner circle" of some of the best Baccarat players in the world.

I will insert my answers below in your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaccaratUnited

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions to ask you guys in regards to the free systems and the U2HiSAP system.

If Ellis is around, it would be great if you could answer my questions. However, I would also be interested to hear what other private members have to say as well.

1. Number of decks: My local casino has a 6 deck mini-baccarat shoe in which I prefer to play since it is not handheld. There is an 8 deck game in the morning but it doesn't open at times. Does the number of decks matter when playing your systems (Free systems and the U2HiSAP)?

Answer: No, I don't believe the number of decks really matter other than for cash management. When you start your 3rd coloumn, your main goal is preservation of your money. Many members use decade cash management, where they will not make a bet that if they lose will take them below the past decade. ie: If you are currently at +13 units, you wouldn't make a bet that would take you below +10 units. This is just one of the many tips I received by being a full member.

2. How many units is recommended to withstand the downswings? Ellis has mentioned that he goes to the casino with 40 units. But what would be the recommended lifetime bankroll?

Answer: 30-40 units is what I also go to the casino with. Put it to you this way. I was at Harrah's in Vegas last month playing black units. I started with 5 units and turned it into 30. If you are disciplined, AND you play the system properly, you shouldn't need any more than that. I use a -8 stop loss at the table. Once my score goes to -8, I leave the table and look for another game.

My goal is +10 units minimum per game net. This is after any commisions, drinks, tipping or whatever. I'm there to make money, so you have to keep track of all expenses. Net what you take home is all that counts.

Even you are only playing the "Free Systems" posted in the public forum, (I'm referring to the example of the U2HiSA, Best game) a 30 - 40 unit bankroll should be fine. Your highest bet will never be more that 2 units at any given time. This more often than not will make you the lowest better at the table, but many time the highest winner.

3. Once you start building up the wins, do you suggest that you increase your unit size? What is the suggested rate and how often should you do it to avoid exposure (Usually I am the only one playing baccarat in the early mornings)?

Answer: Mornings are many times the best time to play the U2HiSA system. Once you learn how to play the full version of SAP, I don't think it will matter when you play. You will be able to adapt to any sort of game the casino throws at you.

Yes, I would definitely increase your unit only after you have started winning and are playing with the casinos money. Conservatively, I would increase my unit bets in direct proportion to how large my bank roll has gotten. I like to keep the ratio 1 unit per 30-40 unit bank roll. Once I have doubled my total bank roll to say 60 units, I will increase by unit bet by double as well.

No you will probably not attract too much attention, but it depends on the casino. Remember if you are playing properly, your highest bet at any time will be only 2 units so its pretty easy to stay below the radar.

4. Is it possible to bring a sustainable income with a small starting bankroll, provided that I follow Ellis' guidelines and minimize your exposure?

Yes! Come join us as a full member and learn the full SAP version. You will be very happy!

If the local casinos prohibit you from using any other scoresheets but theirs, just the margins to track your r/n count. Now r/n, c/s, o/r are basically the same thing so you don't need to track all three. One should suffice.

In the beginning you might want to play with other people so you are not forced to bet every hand and waste money. But thats not really neccesaary since the U2HiSA system is only a 2 unit max bet system. You can play the table minimum, and if the game is going well, increase your unit bet up to what you feel comfortable with.

Hope this helps. Good luck and look forward to seeing you in the full membership forum.

Thanks,

Mark

**E. Clifton Davis** · 12-07-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaccaratUnited

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions to ask you guys in regards to the free systems and the U2HiSAP system.

If Ellis is around, it would be great if you could answer my questions. However, I would also be interested to hear what other private members have to say as well.

1. Number of decks: My local casino has a 6 deck mini-baccarat shoe in which I prefer to play since it is not handheld. There is an 8 deck game in the morning but it doesn't open at times. Does the number of decks matter when playing your systems (Free systems and the U2HiSAP)?

2. How many units is recommended to withstand the downswings? Ellis has mentioned that he goes to the casino with 40 units. But what would be the recommended lifetime bankroll?

3. Once you start building up the wins, do you suggest that you increase your unit size? What is the suggested rate and how often should you do it to avoid exposure (Usually I am the only one playing baccarat in the early mornings)?

4. Is it possible to bring a sustainable income with a small starting bankroll, provided that I follow Ellis' guidelines and minimize your exposure?

I forgot to add another question by the way,

5.My local casino prohibits the usage of other scoresheets than the ones provided by the casino.

How should I combat this? From what I remember, the casino's scoresheets doesn't have enough columns (4 I believe) to fill in the C/S count and the O/R count...

And would it be more advantageous if I was the only one to play at the table (I would have to place a wager but that can be the minimum bet - $5) or is it better to play at a table where everyone is playing?

Thanks once again and I look forward to having success at the baccarat tables!!! (Hopefully, since I have lost lots of time / money through my gambling years)

Hi BacU, Good questions:

1. In fact our best player is limited to 6 deck at his casino. It only makes a proportional; difference.

2. Only losers and losing teachers talk in terms of lifetime bankroll. The object is to prepare yourself with adequate study and practice until you no longer need that term.

3. Absolutely! But it is also best to stay well within your comfort zone. I also am often the only player in the AM. There is an advantage. The cards after the morning card prep are usually the most consistent cards you'll see. Learn to beat those and you have a leg up.

4. Several of our players play full time with no other source of income. I do not recommend you quit a good job. Better to think of it as extra income. But you can do this too if you have sufficient dedication to becomming as good as you can be. Don't rush it.

5. This is more of a hassle than a problem. I recommend you bring some clean cards home and restructure them to your needs and make copies on casino type paper. Most casinos eventually drop that rule once they run out of cards a couple of times. Where is this casino if you don't mind my asking?

**BaccaratUnited** · 12-12-2008, 02:59 PM

Hi Ellis and everyone,

Thank you very much for your replies.

Just as most people in this forum, my goal is to become a professional gambler so that I can spend my spare time doing other things that I always wanted to do in life along with the luxuries that come with winning at baccarat.

During the past 4 years of my gambling life, I have had my ups and downs. In the end, everything has been devastated and only thing I have found out is that I have been wasting all this time not accomplishing anything. Sometimes I wonder had I stayed in University (I am currently 23 years old), at least I would have completed school and be working at a decent paying job.

My goal of wanting to have my own house and my dream car had become far from reality... Or perhaps it is very close to it...

My current job pays okay, however, due to previous losses I have suffered at the baccarat tables, I often find myself chasing for my losses at the casino.

I have played your U2HiSA in my local casino in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Turns out that this is a 4-deck mini baccarat shoe (With an average of 30 hands per shoe - Excluding ties). They do have a 6-deck handheld game, however, I have decided to play the 4-deck game since hands are dealt faster and the minimum bet is smaller ($5 versus $25). It also helps me to finish my session earlier since I start work at 2:00 PM and tables in Edmonton are open at 12:00 PM.

Although I have lost big over the weekend playing the U2HiSA (First player in the morning), (I decided to only stick with the U2HiSA since you had mentioned that a player's session win rate should approach 100% even with the U2HiSA by itself - See thread under "Free Stuff"), I have not given up my hopes of becoming a member (Have to wait a month or two before I get my paycheque and bonuses from work

). I will post a trip report under a different thread and hopefully some of you guys can analyze my play. However, I am fairly confident that I had played the U2HiSA the correct way because I made sure everything I did was correct before I headed out to the casinos.

In this particular casino, I am always the only player in the morning. With this casino, I didn't find the need for the provided scorecards since I drew the scorecards up before I started playing. Nevertheless, there is another casino that has an 8-deck game (Handheld) where they do not allow the use of scorecards other than theirs.

Almost all the time, casinos here in Edmonton have enough scorecards and pens for players to use. In some casinos, they provide pencils but I find them uncomfortable.

Anyways, hopefully someone can educate me a little better since I want to get out of this life of a "Gambler" and become a professional "Player".

Thanks very much once again and have a great weekend.

**E. Clifton Davis** · 12-21-2008, 02:32 PM

Well here on the private forum we have 100 people testing and we run a 1000 shoe computer test on every thing we do. For people trying to develop their own system I say forget it. It took me 25 years to develop SAP and I'm a retired college math professor with a 160 IQ. There isn't a single system for sale on the internet that even works let alone that can compete with SAP.

SAP works on a pure identifiable mathematical advantage and produces a player advantage 40 times what the best card counters in the world can achieve. Many players have been winning consistently with it for 3 years. Some have even posted their trip reports here on the public forum. They all know that SAP works and you can talk directly with them.

Look, I'm the fastest card counter in the world and have written many BJ books. At least I know of no one else that can count down a deck in 13 seconds and tell you if the card you removed was high, low or neutral. But I don't play BJ anymore. SAP is far more profitable and a much surer thing. You could pay $10,000 for a system and it won't even hold a candle to SAP. Many of our players have tried all the other sites and quit them because they didn't know what they were talking about. Nobody ever quit us and nobody has ever asked for their money back. If they had, I'm sure they would come on here and tell you all about it.

**mreteuya** · 12-21-2008, 03:05 PM

But that figure is not accurate as that is assuming you are betting every hand, correct? For example, in my 1st shoe I posted, I only played 22 hands out of 70 total hands. I won 11 units at $500/ unit so $5,500. There were 14 winning hands and 8 losing ones for a 63% winning percentage? I don't know, my math is probably wrong. You're probably right.

**E. Clifton Davis** · 12-21-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thebaccaratkid

Im hoping more people will post there results like kiddo has, this kind of information is important for study and to improve players profit dont you agree,if long term players have those figures on hand please post them on the public forum and show the public its possible to win on a constant basis over time

Yes Kid, I absolutely agree. The problem is that the private forum is very time consumming in itself, as you will soon see. Once a player has gotten himself engrossed over there and is playing regularly and winning, it's hard to get them to shift gears and have some concern for the general public. Recognize that there is nothing in it for them. They become very busy.

**KIDDO** · 12-30-2008, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaccaratUnited

Hi Ellis and everyone,

Thank you very much for your replies.

Just as most people in this forum, my goal is to become a professional gambler so that I can spend my spare time doing other things that I always wanted to do in life along with the luxuries that come with winning at baccarat.

During the past 4 years of my gambling life, I have had my ups and downs. In the end, everything has been devastated and only thing I have found out is that I have been wasting all this time not accomplishing anything. Sometimes I wonder had I stayed in University (I am currently 23 years old), at least I would have completed school and be working at a decent paying job.

My goal of wanting to have my own house and my dream car had become far from reality... Or perhaps it is very close to it...

My current job pays okay, however, due to previous losses I have suffered at the baccarat tables, I often find myself chasing for my losses at the casino.

I have played your U2HiSA in my local casino in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Turns out that this is a 4-deck mini baccarat shoe (With an average of 30 hands per shoe - Excluding ties). They do have a 6-deck handheld game, however, I have decided to play the 4-deck game since hands are dealt faster and the minimum bet is smaller ($5 versus $25). It also helps me to finish my session earlier since I start work at 2:00 PM and tables in Edmonton are open at 12:00 PM.

Although I have lost big over the weekend playing the U2HiSA (First player in the morning), (I decided to only stick with the U2HiSA since you had mentioned that a player's session win rate should approach 100% even with the U2HiSA by itself - See thread under "Free Stuff"), I have not given up my hopes of becoming a member (Have to wait a month or two before I get my paycheque and bonuses from work

). I will post a trip report under a different thread and hopefully some of you guys can analyze my play. However, I am fairly confident that I had played the U2HiSA the correct way because I made sure everything I did was correct before I headed out to the casinos.

In this particular casino, I am always the only player in the morning. With this casino, I didn't find the need for the provided scorecards since I drew the scorecards up before I started playing. Nevertheless, there is another casino that has an 8-deck game (Handheld) where they do not allow the use of scorecards other than theirs.

Almost all the time, casinos here in Edmonton have enough scorecards and pens for players to use. In some casinos, they provide pencils but I find them uncomfortable.

Anyways, hopefully someone can educate me a little better since I want to get out of this life of a "Gambler" and become a professional "Player".

Thanks very much once again and have a great weekend.

If you don't mind me asking... whats your name?

***aegis21*** · 12-31-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Clifton Davis

Yes Kid, I absolutely agree. The problem is that the private forum is very time consumming in itself, as you will soon see. Once a player has gotten himself engrossed over there and is playing regularly and winning, it's hard to get them to shift gears and have some concern for the general public. Recognize that there is nothing in it for them. They become very busy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thebaccaratkid

Ellis this is crap,two things in life you never forget one is where you came from and two is giving back to those who helped you get where you are today..

funny how you think theres nothing in it for them but just think of the sales potential for you to have winners post on the public tread, dam i bet you had thought of that mr math professor, you claim to be a smart man but obviously one who cant work out a simple equation

You are wrong about Ellis statement is "crap" It is not! We do give back and there in lies the difference between you "Thebaccaratkid" and the private members. We have learned a lot from other private members, they are extremely helpful to answer questions etc. So they give back to people those people by helping out new private members. Unlike yourself who hasn't helped a sole on this forum! And that is after Ellis comped you! Talk about not remembering where you came from and who helped you! You have some nerve calling anybody or anything they say is crap! ! ! It is post like these and for these reasons I will ban you if you keep it up! It certainly isn't because what you say is true, it is just the opposite, your accusations are fasle, misleading and negative. WE DON"T want your negativity here on our forum. Start your own and have oral diarrhea on it, but not here kid!

And it is funny how Ellis asks us to post our wins and performance on the public forum so infrequently. We get the feeling from this he isn't as interested in new members have as much as having present members come up to speed and become winning members. that is funny no isn't it, it also says alot about Ellis and integrity! You backid may have to consult Websters' on the def. of integrity, since you obviously have no comprehension of the meaning.

12-03-2008, 02:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
BaccaratUnited Universal Bac Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 18 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 0	Questions about the free systems and the U2HiSAP Hi everyone, I have a few questions to ask you guys in regards to the free systems and the U2HiSAP system. If Ellis is around, it would be great if you could answer my questions. However, I would also be interested to hear what other private members have to say as well. 1. Number of decks: My local casino has a 6 deck mini-baccarat shoe in which I prefer to play since it is not handheld. There is an 8 deck game in the morning but it doesn't open at times. Does the number of decks matter when playing your systems (Free systems and the U2HiSAP)? 2. How many units is recommended to withstand the downswings? Ellis has mentioned that he goes to the casino with 40 units. But what would be the recommended lifetime bankroll? 3. Once you start building up the wins, do you suggest that you increase your unit size? What is the suggested rate and how often should you do it to avoid exposure (Usually I am the only one playing baccarat in the early mornings)? 4. Is it possible to bring a sustainable income with a small starting bankroll, provided that I follow Ellis' guidelines and minimize your exposure?

12-03-2008, 02:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
BaccaratUnited Universal Bac Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 18 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 0	Re: Questions about the free systems and the U2HiSAP I forgot to add another question by the way, My local casino prohibits the usage of other scoresheets than the ones provided by the casino. How should I combat this? From what I remember, the casino's scoresheets doesn't have enough columns (4 I believe) to fill in the C/S count and the O/R count... And would it be more advantageous if I was the only one to play at the table (I would have to place a wager but that can be the minimum bet - $5) or is it better to play at a table where everyone is playing? Thanks once again and I look forward to having success at the baccarat tables!!! (Hopefully, since I have lost lots of time / money through my gambling years)

12-12-2008, 02:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
BaccaratUnited Universal Bac Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 18 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 0	Re: Questions about the free systems and the U2HiSAP Hi Ellis and everyone, Thank you very much for your replies. Just as most people in this forum, my goal is to become a professional gambler so that I can spend my spare time doing other things that I always wanted to do in life along with the luxuries that come with winning at baccarat. During the past 4 years of my gambling life, I have had my ups and downs. In the end, everything has been devastated and only thing I have found out is that I have been wasting all this time not accomplishing anything. Sometimes I wonder had I stayed in University (I am currently 23 years old), at least I would have completed school and be working at a decent paying job. My goal of wanting to have my own house and my dream car had become far from reality... Or perhaps it is very close to it... My current job pays okay, however, due to previous losses I have suffered at the baccarat tables, I often find myself chasing for my losses at the casino. I have played your U2HiSA in my local casino in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Turns out that this is a 4-deck mini baccarat shoe (With an average of 30 hands per shoe - Excluding ties). They do have a 6-deck handheld game, however, I have decided to play the 4-deck game since hands are dealt faster and the minimum bet is smaller ($5 versus $25). It also helps me to finish my session earlier since I start work at 2:00 PM and tables in Edmonton are open at 12:00 PM. Although I have lost big over the weekend playing the U2HiSA (First player in the morning), (I decided to only stick with the U2HiSA since you had mentioned that a player's session win rate should approach 100% even with the U2HiSA by itself - See thread under "Free Stuff"), I have not given up my hopes of becoming a member (Have to wait a month or two before I get my paycheque and bonuses from work ). I will post a trip report under a different thread and hopefully some of you guys can analyze my play. However, I am fairly confident that I had played the U2HiSA the correct way because I made sure everything I did was correct before I headed out to the casinos. In this particular casino, I am always the only player in the morning. With this casino, I didn't find the need for the provided scorecards since I drew the scorecards up before I started playing. Nevertheless, there is another casino that has an 8-deck game (Handheld) where they do not allow the use of scorecards other than theirs. Almost all the time, casinos here in Edmonton have enough scorecards and pens for players to use. In some casinos, they provide pencils but I find them uncomfortable. Anyways, hopefully someone can educate me a little better since I want to get out of this life of a "Gambler" and become a professional "Player". Thanks very much once again and have a great weekend.

12-21-2008, 02:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
E. Clifton Davis Professional Player \| Co-Founder Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,189 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 135	Re: Questions about the free systems and the U2HiSAP Well here on the private forum we have 100 people testing and we run a 1000 shoe computer test on every thing we do. For people trying to develop their own system I say forget it. It took me 25 years to develop SAP and I'm a retired college math professor with a 160 IQ. There isn't a single system for sale on the internet that even works let alone that can compete with SAP. SAP works on a pure identifiable mathematical advantage and produces a player advantage 40 times what the best card counters in the world can achieve. Many players have been winning consistently with it for 3 years. Some have even posted their trip reports here on the public forum. They all know that SAP works and you can talk directly with them. Look, I'm the fastest card counter in the world and have written many BJ books. At least I know of no one else that can count down a deck in 13 seconds and tell you if the card you removed was high, low or neutral. But I don't play BJ anymore. SAP is far more profitable and a much surer thing. You could pay $10,000 for a system and it won't even hold a candle to SAP. Many of our players have tried all the other sites and quit them because they didn't know what they were talking about. Nobody ever quit us and nobody has ever asked for their money back. If they had, I'm sure they would come on here and tell you all about it. __________________ BeatTheCasino ellis@beatthecasino.com

12-21-2008, 03:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
mreteuya Universal Bac Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 195 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 20	Re: Questions about the free systems and the U2HiSAP But that figure is not accurate as that is assuming you are betting every hand, correct? For example, in my 1st shoe I posted, I only played 22 hands out of 70 total hands. I won 11 units at $500/ unit so $5,500. There were 14 winning hands and 8 losing ones for a 63% winning percentage? I don't know, my math is probably wrong. You're probably right.

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