Net Betting - Beat The Casino Forums "Where The Pros Are"

James1 · 12-31-2008, 11:36 PM

I am 60 years old. I have been playing Baccarat since the early 80’s. I know a little bit about the game. Though I can easily count down a deck of cards in 13 seconds I am no genius. I didn’t realize it was so difficult.

Net betting. When one studies and fools around with systems and progressions one soon fools around with “net betting.” Whether it is side specific, alternate side specific or combination thereof it has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that it evens out the win/loss curve and this can be a good thing. Conservative gambling is prudent in my opinion. One part wins, one part loses. . . of course both parts can win or lose as well. The great disadvantage of net betting is simply that one bet placement may necessarily be a losing bet. Why? As Mr. Davis has correctly pointed out a winning method is all about bet placement. If one makes a bet that is more likely to win then by definition the other side is more likely to lose. Here is an example. In certain circumstances to make a bet on Player that a Player run of 2 will continue and make a run of 3 is a bad bet. If the Player side calls for a “big” bet that 2 will become a run of 3 and the opposite Banker bet is the “small” bet you have a losing proposition. Proof? Mr. Davis has proposed that his winning method(s) wins because there are certain events that are more common than others. I agree wholeheartedly.

I don’t know about or have need of Mr. Davis’ methods. I do play for income and I am aware of other players who do as well. Successfully I may add.

Thank you.

James in Memphis

**E. Clifton Davis** · 01-01-2009, 12:05 PM

Hi James, A nice note.

BTW there's not much disparity in our ages. I'm 68. And not much disparity in our lacation. I'm just across the river in Cherokee Village, AR. The fact is we've likely played together before. I'm originally from Upstate New York, Saratoga Springs.

You are right. Card counting is really so simple you could teach a Baboon to do it. The problem is, as I'm sure you know by now, it simply doesn't work, just as the casinos have known for years.

Yes, net betting is a good tool to keep your bets and your commission low. As you know by now, net betting works very well whenever the two things you are net betting have little disparity. (Are running about the same)

For instance if you are simply net betting P vs B and the final disparity between the two is less than 9 you will likely win with a simple up 1 on a loss down 2 on a win (U1D2) progression. You'll usually do a few units better if you add M2. Mandatory 2 (A side bets 2 after 1 regardless if the 1 side wins or loses) but that also increases your exposure in a high disparity shoe.

At this point your are at about break even. Half of the shoes will stay within an acceptable disparity and half won't. But you can deploy a simple trick to keep your wins higher than your losses.

You get two types of disparity: First is the shoe where one side or the other goes ahead and stays ahead. Here, you will only win the shoes where the disparity stays within acceptable confines.

The other type is always beatable however. This is when B and P take turns being ahead. Here if you simply quit the shoe at a point where B and P are equal you win because your score peaks whenever the two sides cross paths. This will put you in the winners circle. But not at the top of the winners circle.

To win the most, you need one more trick. We call it the 0 bet. The 0 bet turns disparity into your friend rather than your enemy. You "Exploit" disparity! The rule is that once a side bets 0 it can't bet the next number until it "wins" a 0. Now, you like disparity but don't NEED disparity. The trick is to deploy the 0 at the right frequency for the shoe you are playing.

In a close disparity shoe you don't need the 0 at all because your down 2 rule will more than compensate for what little disparity there is.

But in a medium disparity shoe you may want to deploy the 0 whenever a side loses 3 bets in a row.

But in a high disparity shoe you may want to deploy the 0 after 2 losing bets.

For example, suppose there is a Bank 7 in a row. Your player side bets would be something like 1,2,0,0,0,0,0. While your Bank side bets would be something like 3,1,2,1,2,1,2. So you lost 3 on the P side but you won 12 on the Bank side so you are up 9 for the run of 8 at the last play of the run. See, now disparity helped you.

See, now you've got some more experimenting to do at home. That's OK. Us old guys don't have anything better to do anyway.

Meanwhile our star of the month player, Kiddo, completed his 100th SAP FE shoe. I don't have his results on the last 69 yet but I'll post them when I do. I doubt if his average of +9 changed very much in the last 69 though.

The huge benefit of SAP FE is that unlike the above strategy, you never bet more than 2 units. Since you never make a high bet you are free to go to much higher units. In Kiddo's case $500 units. I suspect his profits are in the $400,000 to $500,000 range now but I'll post them when I know.

About 30 of us had a 3 hour Skype meeting with Kiddo yesterday wherein we went over some of his shoes play by play so that the students know exactly what eash bet was and why. No, you don't have to be a genius to play SAP but it helps to understand it thoroughly. Anyone can learn it.

SAP is a much more sophisticated system than what we were discussing above. It's a truly professional system. You aren't playing for the fun of it anymore! As you inferred above SAP works off of the principle that at the end of every shoe there was a most common event MC and a least common event LC. The idea is to win to the most common and lose to the least common. You MUST lose to something. Fortunately it is virtually impossible for all events to occur at their normal frequency throughout a shoe as clearly demonstrated by Kiddo's 90% win rate. And because you can never lose to the most common event, your few losses are very low averaging about -4 and never more than -8. Not bad when your overall average is +9!

This is the system we ultimately teach to the private members. While the principle is old, our way of taking advantage of this principle is brand new. No, forget trying to figure it out on your own. Your odds of doing this are about the same as your odds of accidentally discovering nuclear fussion.

James, before I forget, I better go back and explain to the novices that NO we never actually bet on both sides. In net betting you end up with an entry on both sides on your scorecard. You subtract the low entry from the high entry and only bet the difference on the table.

Yes, our total price is $500 for lifetime membership. Most of you, perhaps not James, will go through more than that your next trip to a casino. That's how casinos survive. You need to skip one trip and learn how to play instead. No, we certainly don't make a killing. We barely make enough to cover payroll and Site expenses. If I wanted to make a killing I'd go back to mailing out manuals at $3000 a copy and conducting $100,000 seminars every month which I did for 20 years. But I'm too old for that life anymore as James can probably attest. I'm content these days to teach as many people as I can how to beat casinos before I die. I did it. My players do it. So can you!

Sure, I realize people are taking pot shots at me all over the internet. That's because I've been #1 in this business for 20 years. And there's not a thing they can do about it. So they get frustrated, particularly if I mention my 160 I.Q.. They get totally incensed over that. But I think you need to know that you are learning from the best. All of the members KNOW that. Most of them tried everybody else first. A waste of money. But EVERY member is VERY happy to be here. Ask them. You can talk to any of our members anytime you want, right here. Hey, if you are going to do something, learn how to do it right!

How do you order? Just push an order button. It will tell you all your options.

Oh, that reminds me. In addition to the Skype classes we are about to have a brand new SAP FE manual. This new manual is geared to the novice of avg. intelligence. ANYBODY can learn to win big from this new manual. Happy hunting!

Ellis

**E. Clifton Davis** · 01-02-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anutawakidaye

With net betting do you place 2 bets one on each side but one with say 2 units and one with 1 unit ?

No anut. You merely have entries on your score card on both sides. You subtract the low entry from the high entry and table bet the difference on the side with the higher entry.

BTW, One of our private member Aussies, KS, confirmed the casino arrangement you describe. Could be you are both playing the same casino. I doubt, with my poor eyesight, that I could see which side players at other tables were on but then nor would I care the way I play. There is nothing in the arrangement there that would effect our SAP players. Once you learned SAP, you would find that far more effective than betting against other players. A lot friendlier too. You'd soon see many of the players betting with you and you'd quickly become the most popular player there. Plus you'd probably have another fellow Aussie to study with. KS is a new student and we have other, more experienced Aussies.

James1 · 01-03-2009, 11:26 AM

Well said Mr. Davis. You undoubtedly know what you are talking about. I understand what you mean, particularly about the "0" bet and disparity. I don't want to talk "out of school" so you need not comment specifically about your method. I believe the "0" bet signifies an adjustment. I have my adjustment as well. A simple tweak that can overcome a shoe change. A mechanical switch but can be a little confusing because there are some special rules. Ultimately this is the key to the game.

I don't use net betting. Instead I define 5 particular "MC" bets (as you put it) and use a small negative prog along with a small stage up as you win to two places. I imagine it is similar to your 2123. But I play each placement separately as one game. So it can be confusing (hahah) to keep track. My casino records are poor since I don't always play the whole shoe but my practice game show about the same win rate as you describe. Losses about -4 and wins about +8. About 80%. But the study never ends, does it? Always looking for something a little better :-)

I agree about cash management. Just a tool to keep us sane! When I know it is my last shoe of the session, for instance, I am chagrin to lose too much so I may just quit at a decent win, even 1 unit if I don't like the game.

My nemesis is a game that is too streaky. I win them but except for the rare occasion I don't get many units out of them. Boo hoo. I think you got to pick your poison in this game.

I did fool around with the 2123 as I guess you play it. Base bet is 2 and if lose neg. prog 123 until win one of them then revert to 2 again. With a good method we are winning more bets in a row then WLWL pattern which hurts sometimes but it only takes a few wins in a row to make up for those 1 unit losses. All in all - a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Clifton Davis

Hi James, A nice note.

BTW there's not much disparity in our ages. I'm 68. And not much disparity in our lacation. I'm just across the river in Cherokee Village, AR. The fact is we've likely played together before. I'm originally from Upstate New York, Saratoga Springs.

You are right. Card counting is really so simple you could teach a Baboon to do it. The problem is, as I'm sure you know by now, it simply doesn't work, just as the casinos have known for years.

Yes, net betting is a good tool to keep your bets and your commission low. As you know by now, net betting works very well whenever the two things you are net betting have little disparity. (Are running about the same)

For instance if you are simply net betting P vs B and the final disparity between the two is less than 9 you will likely win with a simple up 1 on a loss down 2 on a win (U1D2) progression. You'll usually do a few units better if you add M2. Mandatory 2 (A side bets 2 after 1 regardless if the 1 side wins or loses) but that also increases your exposure in a high disparity shoe.

At this point your are at about break even. Half of the shoes will stay within an acceptable disparity and half won't. But you can deploy a simple trick to keep your wins higher than your losses.

You get two types of disparity: First is the shoe where one side or the other goes ahead and stays ahead. Here, you will only win the shoes where the disparity stays within acceptable confines.

The other type is always beatable however. This is when B and P take turns being ahead. Here if you simply quit the shoe at a point where B and P are equal you win because your score peaks whenever the two sides cross paths. This will put you in the winners circle. But not at the top of the winners circle.

To win the most, you need one more trick. We call it the 0 bet. The 0 bet turns disparity into your friend rather than your enemy. You "Exploit" disparity! The rule is that once a side bets 0 it can't bet the next number until it "wins" a 0. Now, you like disparity but don't NEED disparity. The trick is to deploy the 0 at the right frequency for the shoe you are playing.

In a close disparity shoe you don't need the 0 at all because your down 2 rule will more than compensate for what little disparity there is.

But in a medium disparity shoe you may want to deploy the 0 whenever a side loses 3 bets in a row.

But in a high disparity shoe you may want to deploy the 0 after 2 losing bets.

For example, suppose there is a Bank 7 in a row. Your player side bets would be something like 1,2,0,0,0,0,0. While your Bank side bets would be something like 3,1,2,1,2,1,2. So you lost 3 on the P side but you won 12 on the Bank side so you are up 9 for the run of 8 at the last play of the run. See, now disparity helped you.

See, now you've got some more experimenting to do at home. That's OK. Us old guys don't have anything better to do anyway.

Meanwhile our star of the month player, Kiddo, completed his 100th SAP FE shoe. I don't have his results on the last 69 yet but I'll post them when I do. I doubt if his average of +9 changed very much in the last 69 though.

The huge benefit of SAP FE is that unlike the above strategy, you never bet more than 2 units. Since you never make a high bet you are free to go to much higher units. In Kiddo's case $500 units. I suspect his profits are in the $400,000 to $500,000 range now but I'll post them when I know.

About 30 of us had a 3 hour Skype meeting with Kiddo yesterday wherein we went over some of his shoes play by play so that the students know exactly what eash bet was and why. No, you don't have to be a genius to play SAP but it helps to understand it thoroughly. Anyone can learn it.

SAP is a much more sophisticated system than what we were discussing above. It's a truly professional system. You aren't playing for the fun of it anymore! As you inferred above SAP works off of the principle that at the end of every shoe there was a most common event MC and a least common event LC. The idea is to win to the most common and lose to the least common. You MUST lose to something. Fortunately it is virtually impossible for all events to occur at their normal frequency throughout a shoe as clearly demonstrated by Kiddo's 90% win rate. And because you can never lose to the most common event, your few losses are very low averaging about -4 and never more than -8. Not bad when your overall average is +9!

This is the system we ultimately teach to the private members. While the principle is old, our way of taking advantage of this principle is brand new. No, forget trying to figure it out on your own. Your odds of doing this are about the same as your odds of accidentally discovering nuclear fussion.

James, before I forget, I better go back and explain to the novices that NO we never actually bet on both sides. In net betting you end up with an entry on both sides on your scorecard. You subtract the low entry from the high entry and only bet the difference on the table.

Yes, our total price is $500 for lifetime membership. Most of you, perhaps not James, will go through more than that your next trip to a casino. That's how casinos survive. You need to skip one trip and learn how to play instead. No, we certainly don't make a killing. We barely make enough to cover payroll and Site expenses. If I wanted to make a killing I'd go back to mailing out manuals at $3000 a copy and conducting $100,000 seminars every month which I did for 20 years. But I'm too old for that life anymore as James can probably attest. I'm content these days to teach as many people as I can how to beat casinos before I die. I did it. My players do it. So can you!

Sure, I realize people are taking pot shots at me all over the internet. That's because I've been #1 in this business for 20 years. And there's not a thing they can do about it. So they get frustrated, particularly if I mention my 160 I.Q.. They get totally incensed over that. But I think you need to know that you are learning from the best. All of the members KNOW that. Most of them tried everybody else first. A waste of money. But EVERY member is VERY happy to be here. Ask them. You can talk to any of our members anytime you want, right here. Hey, if you are going to do something, learn how to do it right!

How do you order? Just push an order button. It will tell you all your options.

Oh, that reminds me. In addition to the Skype classes we are about to have a brand new SAP FE manual. This new manual is geared to the novice of avg. intelligence. ANYBODY can learn to win big from this new manual. Happy hunting!

Ellis

**CarlosM** · 01-04-2009, 07:17 PM

I have been away for a long time and boy, did I miss alot! Happy New Year everyone.

**mreteuya** · 01-08-2009, 11:27 PM

James1,

I hope to see you as a full member soon. It sure sounds like you know your stuff and can contribute a lot as well. Maybe you can be there in Vegas with some of us in February an we can all play and learn together.

James1 · 01-09-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mreteuya

James1,

I hope to see you as a full member soon. It sure sounds like you know your stuff and can contribute a lot as well. Maybe you can be there in Vegas with some of us in February an we can all play and learn together.

Thank you very much. Perhaps I will come to LV. I may be much further South, not sure yet.

12-31-2008, 11:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
James1 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 0	Net Betting I am 60 years old. I have been playing Baccarat since the early 80’s. I know a little bit about the game. Though I can easily count down a deck of cards in 13 seconds I am no genius. I didn’t realize it was so difficult. Net betting. When one studies and fools around with systems and progressions one soon fools around with “net betting.” Whether it is side specific, alternate side specific or combination thereof it has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that it evens out the win/loss curve and this can be a good thing. Conservative gambling is prudent in my opinion. One part wins, one part loses. . . of course both parts can win or lose as well. The great disadvantage of net betting is simply that one bet placement may necessarily be a losing bet. Why? As Mr. Davis has correctly pointed out a winning method is all about bet placement. If one makes a bet that is more likely to win then by definition the other side is more likely to lose. Here is an example. In certain circumstances to make a bet on Player that a Player run of 2 will continue and make a run of 3 is a bad bet. If the Player side calls for a “big” bet that 2 will become a run of 3 and the opposite Banker bet is the “small” bet you have a losing proposition. Proof? Mr. Davis has proposed that his winning method(s) wins because there are certain events that are more common than others. I agree wholeheartedly. I don’t know about or have need of Mr. Davis’ methods. I do play for income and I am aware of other players who do as well. Successfully I may add. Thank you. James in Memphis

01-01-2009, 12:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
E. Clifton Davis Professional Player \| Co-Founder Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,189 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 135	Re: Net Betting Hi James, A nice note. BTW there's not much disparity in our ages. I'm 68. And not much disparity in our lacation. I'm just across the river in Cherokee Village, AR. The fact is we've likely played together before. I'm originally from Upstate New York, Saratoga Springs. You are right. Card counting is really so simple you could teach a Baboon to do it. The problem is, as I'm sure you know by now, it simply doesn't work, just as the casinos have known for years. Yes, net betting is a good tool to keep your bets and your commission low. As you know by now, net betting works very well whenever the two things you are net betting have little disparity. (Are running about the same) For instance if you are simply net betting P vs B and the final disparity between the two is less than 9 you will likely win with a simple up 1 on a loss down 2 on a win (U1D2) progression. You'll usually do a few units better if you add M2. Mandatory 2 (A side bets 2 after 1 regardless if the 1 side wins or loses) but that also increases your exposure in a high disparity shoe. At this point your are at about break even. Half of the shoes will stay within an acceptable disparity and half won't. But you can deploy a simple trick to keep your wins higher than your losses. You get two types of disparity: First is the shoe where one side or the other goes ahead and stays ahead. Here, you will only win the shoes where the disparity stays within acceptable confines. The other type is always beatable however. This is when B and P take turns being ahead. Here if you simply quit the shoe at a point where B and P are equal you win because your score peaks whenever the two sides cross paths. This will put you in the winners circle. But not at the top of the winners circle. To win the most, you need one more trick. We call it the 0 bet. The 0 bet turns disparity into your friend rather than your enemy. You "Exploit" disparity! The rule is that once a side bets 0 it can't bet the next number until it "wins" a 0. Now, you like disparity but don't NEED disparity. The trick is to deploy the 0 at the right frequency for the shoe you are playing. In a close disparity shoe you don't need the 0 at all because your down 2 rule will more than compensate for what little disparity there is. But in a medium disparity shoe you may want to deploy the 0 whenever a side loses 3 bets in a row. But in a high disparity shoe you may want to deploy the 0 after 2 losing bets. For example, suppose there is a Bank 7 in a row. Your player side bets would be something like 1,2,0,0,0,0,0. While your Bank side bets would be something like 3,1,2,1,2,1,2. So you lost 3 on the P side but you won 12 on the Bank side so you are up 9 for the run of 8 at the last play of the run. See, now disparity helped you. See, now you've got some more experimenting to do at home. That's OK. Us old guys don't have anything better to do anyway. Meanwhile our star of the month player, Kiddo, completed his 100th SAP FE shoe. I don't have his results on the last 69 yet but I'll post them when I do. I doubt if his average of +9 changed very much in the last 69 though. The huge benefit of SAP FE is that unlike the above strategy, you never bet more than 2 units. Since you never make a high bet you are free to go to much higher units. In Kiddo's case $500 units. I suspect his profits are in the $400,000 to $500,000 range now but I'll post them when I know. About 30 of us had a 3 hour Skype meeting with Kiddo yesterday wherein we went over some of his shoes play by play so that the students know exactly what eash bet was and why. No, you don't have to be a genius to play SAP but it helps to understand it thoroughly. Anyone can learn it. SAP is a much more sophisticated system than what we were discussing above. It's a truly professional system. You aren't playing for the fun of it anymore! As you inferred above SAP works off of the principle that at the end of every shoe there was a most common event MC and a least common event LC. The idea is to win to the most common and lose to the least common. You MUST lose to something. Fortunately it is virtually impossible for all events to occur at their normal frequency throughout a shoe as clearly demonstrated by Kiddo's 90% win rate. And because you can never lose to the most common event, your few losses are very low averaging about -4 and never more than -8. Not bad when your overall average is +9! This is the system we ultimately teach to the private members. While the principle is old, our way of taking advantage of this principle is brand new. No, forget trying to figure it out on your own. Your odds of doing this are about the same as your odds of accidentally discovering nuclear fussion. James, before I forget, I better go back and explain to the novices that NO we never actually bet on both sides. In net betting you end up with an entry on both sides on your scorecard. You subtract the low entry from the high entry and only bet the difference on the table. Yes, our total price is $500 for lifetime membership. Most of you, perhaps not James, will go through more than that your next trip to a casino. That's how casinos survive. You need to skip one trip and learn how to play instead. No, we certainly don't make a killing. We barely make enough to cover payroll and Site expenses. If I wanted to make a killing I'd go back to mailing out manuals at $3000 a copy and conducting $100,000 seminars every month which I did for 20 years. But I'm too old for that life anymore as James can probably attest. I'm content these days to teach as many people as I can how to beat casinos before I die. I did it. My players do it. So can you! Sure, I realize people are taking pot shots at me all over the internet. That's because I've been #1 in this business for 20 years. And there's not a thing they can do about it. So they get frustrated, particularly if I mention my 160 I.Q.. They get totally incensed over that. But I think you need to know that you are learning from the best. All of the members KNOW that. Most of them tried everybody else first. A waste of money. But EVERY member is VERY happy to be here. Ask them. You can talk to any of our members anytime you want, right here. Hey, if you are going to do something, learn how to do it right! How do you order? Just push an order button. It will tell you all your options. Oh, that reminds me. In addition to the Skype classes we are about to have a brand new SAP FE manual. This new manual is geared to the novice of avg. intelligence. ANYBODY can learn to win big from this new manual. Happy hunting! Ellis __________________ BeatTheCasino ellis@beatthecasino.com

01-04-2009, 07:17 PM	#5 (permalink)
CarlosM Universal Bac Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada. Toronto, Ontario. Posts: 281 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 61	Re: Net Betting I have been away for a long time and boy, did I miss alot! Happy New Year everyone. __________________ Carlos Maiato Molina BeatTheCasino.com

01-08-2009, 11:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
mreteuya Universal Bac Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 195 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 20	Re: Net Betting James1, I hope to see you as a full member soon. It sure sounds like you know your stuff and can contribute a lot as well. Maybe you can be there in Vegas with some of us in February an we can all play and learn together.

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