Keith Smith

Does anyone have an updated zero proximity count for 4 deck games?

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Keith Smith

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"There is no system in the
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cardcounter

What is the zero prox count?

~a

E. Clifton Davis

In 0 prox, we count cards in the normal fashion. But instead of raising our bet as the count increases, we raise our bet as the count approaches 0. It is particularly effective in games where the count does't go far. Ie., we are seeing a relatively even distribution of tens. We know that Basic Strategy works best in random cards. A zero count is a signature of random cards. We play straight Basic and raise our bet when we anticipate the count will cross 0. The traditional card counter often misses these games while waiting for the count to hit a given plateau. Yet, they are usually the best of games with a high dealer break rate. We find this particularly effective in one to six deck games. Seldom effective in 8 deck.

nevadababy

I didn't know anybody played this at all anymore. It works in a double deck game well. If you look around in Reno there are a few good ones. This forum for this thread has an extremly high number of views lets here from the zero prox players if you play this.. I paly in Reno wanna get a team together??Send me an email or private message.

E. Clifton Davis

I also find the two deck games best in Tunica MS. It is usually clumped more than their 6 decks games. This is because they replace the cards with new decks more frequently than at the 6 deck tables. The box card order of new cards creates excellent first base window games. But once these cards are played to more random conditions, zero prox does very well. When they change decks I stay at that table and switch back to first base play. Welcome to the forum.

ruswess

Zero Proximity Betting a great idea, if you know where the zero
proximity reference point is, but you never do. You assume it is exactly
at zero count. It is likely near there but could well be far off
resulting in betting high at the wrong time. Lets examine it
further.

You would like to make your highest bets where the count
changes sign the most often. This is in a nearly random section
of the deck, as opposed to a section where the cards are
predominately high. (There you push with the dealer too often.)
Or in a section of the deck where there are predominately low
cards. (There you frequently double or split low cards, or double
after splitting, and the dealer always seems to make a hand.)

So where does the point count change sign the most often?

Plot the count on a single axis with zero count in the middle and
plus and minus counts on either side you would find your zero
proximity reference point where the plot points are densest
and the count changes sign most often. There would be only a
very few plots at the highest and the lowest counts and the
greatest number of plots near the middle at zero proximity.

But the zero proximity point and the zero count may not
coincide as we shall soon see.

Lets examine the shoe further. You start your point count at zero
and end the count ends at zero if you go though all cards in the shoe.
Right? OK, when the deck is cut the last card is placed next to
the first card by the dealer before placing the cards in the shoe.
In fact you could imagine a circular arranged deck where the cards
could be cut anywhere. But what if, in the plot exercise above,
the deck is cut next to the card that was the high count (or the low
count) in the plot. Assume the same deck card order. That
would result your erroneously assumed zero proximity point. In
fact any place you cut the cards that is not in that dense zone on the
plot line, where the count is often reversing sign, is not the zero
proximity reference point. You will not know where it is until
the deck is entirely played out. Not until it is too late to use it.

Russ

E. Clifton Davis

Hi Russ, Ellis here. Just got back from a long trip that included Vegas. Your comments on 0 prox are right on the money, as usual.

Recognize that O prox is designed as a special application system for clumpers and counters alike. I designed it for A.C. low count, 4 deck games. As I recall, it is for 4 deck games where the count stays between +7 and -7 from shoe to shoe. This was a very common situation at the Claridge in A.C. There wasn't enough count in those games for counters or clumpers to get any advantage. But, 0 Prox was so successful at the Claridge that they finally closed the 4 deck game down altogether, but not before a bunch of us took a lot of money from them. So some of the players who partook in that adventure looked for other applications and found success with 2 deck as it passes through the random stage shortly after new cards enter the game, about a two hour window. We also had good luck with 6 deck. It works quite well in any low count game. Low count is the key to success with 0 prox. We particularly like games or sections of games where the count continually passes back and forth thru zero.

We placed our high bet when it appeared that the count was going to pass through 0. For instance, it the count went from -5 to -2 in the last round, we would increase our bet. Whether the count actually went through 0 at that point was of little consequence. At the point we placed our high bet, the count of the remaining cards was, at most, 2 or 3 off 0. As you know, basic strategy is at its optimum when the count of the round is 0. You have already mentioned correctly, the consequences when the count of the round is either significantly plus or minus.

When you find those conditions, try it. Neither counting nor clumping will be effective in those conditions anyway. As in counting, the closer you are to card depleation the better your odds. Bet accordingly.

E Clifton Davis

Keith Smith

From what russ is saying he contends that you never know where the zero prox is form his first statement. Russ can you clarify your position on this for me please.

Regards
Keith

__________________
Keith Smith

Beatthecasino.com
keith@beatthecasino.com
"There is no system in the
world that can overcome
the house advantage...
that you know of anyway"

ruswess

I know a fellow who lives in Vegas and plays almost every day. He does not play basic strategy. He does not count. He seldom finishes a shoe and may not start a shoe from the beginning. He practiced for years having his daughters deal to him out of anyone of 70 or so shoes that he has in his house. When the game goes bad he tells the girl to shuffle up a different shoe.

What does all of this tell you?

It tells me several things. He must be winning, as he claims, or he would have run out of money years ago. He cannot be playing a strategy that was designed based on random cards. He practices good table entry and table departure techniques. Before speculating on another facet of his game let me say

I agree with Ellis that when cards transition from wash card clumping to play card clumping the shoes frequently go through a playable winning game. That particular game may continue or reappear later in subsequent shoes as player favorable sections of the whole shoe. These opportunities do not necessarily appear at some obituary running count but they do usually act like zero proximity zones in that the count rapidly changes direction.

I submit to you that my friend's trained intuition allows him, more often that not, to enter and exit games near these player favorable zones of the shoe.

Russ

ruswess

Go back to the circular shoe concept. When the cards are cut the dealer places the top card next to the bottom card. The card order does not change. If you cut again and the dealer goes through the same procedure and the card order does not change. Only the starting and stopping cards, the first and last cards are in a different part of the deck.

You can see this if you make your deck or shoe a circular shoe where the top and bottom cards are next to each other. Now, as above, you can cut anywhere and not change the card order, only the starting card is determined and the rest of the cards follow in the predetermined deck order.


So now you start your running count as the cards are dealt out starting at count zero. That is zero count not the zero reference point. That could be at any one of a great number of other places because it occurs at the count where the greatest number of count changes takes place. It is more likely to be there at zero count than any other point but if you happen to cut the cards anywhere but at the zero reference point you are going to make your high bets at the wrong time. You do not want that.

Russ